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Mr_Banks

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Posts: 10
Reply with quote  #1 
Hello all, I'm a new landlord and just wanted to know how I should handle utilities for a multifamily home, with 2 units. Do I average and estimate the monthly cost of utilities and add that to the rent, or is there a way to separate the utilities between the 2 units and have the tenants pay for their own individual utilities?

It would not be fair to have one tenant paying for another tenants utilities and paying the utilities myself is fine, but just wouldn't want the tenants taking advantage. Any response is helpful thanks for your time and have a wonderful day.
ahkenaten

Registered:
Posts: 156
Reply with quote  #2 
Hmm... if tenants are sharing utilities, you can always make their rents utilities included by adding the average bill to their rents equally. Tenant 1 and Tenant 2 share utilities, and their rents are $500 each. The landlord calls the electric provider for the average cost of that property's electricity for a good length of time (two years is good). That cost is $200 per month. So the landlord makes both units utilities included, and charges each tenant $100 a month extra. They both pay $600 a month, the electricity is in your name, and everyone gets to shut up and live life. Of course, you now have to keep a close eye on the bill each month.

There are probably easier ways to do it, but that's what I would do. You should also get a price quote for separating utilities. The right price might make it worthwhile.
TRDAcct

Registered:
Posts: 6
Reply with quote  #3 
I use a company called Guardian, they setup individual metering between the duplexes so that you can see what each side owes, they bill them and I get their utility payments with the rent checks every months. Problems with doing things like adding averages is you might have an average water bill of $100/mo but then there is a water leak somewhere and it goes to say $400 for one month or two, you'll never make out on the averages because it would take a year to recover the money from that one incident. 
NoNonsenseLandlord

Registered:
Posts: 178
Reply with quote  #4 
I estimate the average cost and add it to the rent.  When you advertise, advertise at the lower price and have a pre-set charge.

That way, you are not blown out of the water by tenant searches that compare your property to others where utilities are extra.

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Landlording for maximum profitability and Financial Independence

Number21

Registered:
Posts: 75
Reply with quote  #5 
Anybody who tries to rent a property without individual meters is an amateur, no other way to say it. This is completely unprofessional and leaves room for all sorts of issues for the tenant and the landlord. It is cheap and easy to either set each tenant up with their own service/meter from the utility company, or, if not, a submeter is always easy and cheap to install. Without a meter there is no way to prove who used what, and if they decide they don't want to pay one day, you can't make them. This goes for electricity, gas, and water. 

What happens if the bill goes through the roof one month and nobody will admit they used the utilities? What if somebody leaves a space heater or a water tap running for 3 days straight? Are you going to try and charge both tenants for that or just eat the bill yourself? If they all had their own meter it wouldn't be your problem, it would be between the tenant and the utility to work out.

Let me give you a great example of why:
Many years ago I leased an industrial unit in a commercial building. The property only had one water meter, and 10 tenants. The landlord didn't know what she was doing, very mean, always trying to cause issues with tenants and not living up to the leases that were signed. Finally I got tired of dealing with her BS, so I started leaving the hose running 24/7. My lease clearly specified I get free unmetered water and the landlord has to pay the water bill for everybody. The water bill became higher than the rent I had to pay. (And she deserved it!) She asked me to stop using so much water, and I informed her by certified letter that I will continue to use as much as I want! There was nothing she could do. This went on for 10 months. Don't make your tenants mad, smart ones will get even!
NoNonsenseLandlord

Registered:
Posts: 178
Reply with quote  #6 
Number21 => tenant troll.

A solid lease, and a common lease term, is as follows.  

11.  RESIDENT PROMISES:
1) Not to damage or misuse the apartment or waste the utilities provided by MANAGEMENT or allow his/her guests to do so; ...

For abusing the utilities, your lease would have been terminated, and a bill sent if your landlord was a solid one.  And your damage deposit would have been deducted.  I can only imagine the types of places that would accept you.

The fact of the matter is, good tenants do not do damage intentionally.  They are generally raised correctly, and keep those habits with them when they rent.  You can generally tell a tenants character by their credit score, and criminal record.  And also the type of job/career they have.

Separate utilities can be very difficult and expensive to put in.  Each meter costs enough, but there is also the splitting of the plumbing, electrical, heating systems and air condition.  If you have a single boiler, heat is near impossible to split.  The payback is non-existent.

Even with a single forced air furnace, you have to split the ducts and add a furnace.  The same with central air.

Electric is also difficult.  

Separate meters also create a challenge for common area utilities.  Who pays for outside lighting and water?

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Landlording for maximum profitability and Financial Independence

Number21

Registered:
Posts: 75
Reply with quote  #7 
Stupid post, as usual you are too stupid to comprehend how commercial leasing works. Residential apartment leasing is NOT the only way to be a landlord! Get that through your thick skull! Residential laws and agreements DO NOT apply!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord

11.  RESIDENT PROMISES: 1) Not to damage or misuse the apartment or waste the utilities provided by MANAGEMENT or allow his/her guests to do so; ...

Whether common or not does not matter, that statement was never a part of my COMMERCIAL lease. Furthermore my use of water was not "damage or misuse". 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord

For abusing the utilities, your lease would have been terminated, and a bill sent

Landlord tried, I basically flipped her off. She could do nothing. She was even more an incompetent landlord than you are, if you can believe that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord

I can only imagine the types of places that would accept you.

With my credit rating, income level, and other credentials, I could lease practically anything in the world I want to.

I am living proof of how incredibly stupid you are for thinking you have the ability to see and choose between good and bad tenants. I am a bad tenant for the fact that if you piss me off, I screw the landlord over, in smart legal ways. You don't want me as a tenant. I have fantastic credit, a good job, and good income, and good references, so you would be in a hurry to sign me up for any apartment you have. Not that I would ever try and live in an apartment or rent anything from somebody who is clearly a slumlord such as yourself...

PS - smart tenants ask around about their landlord from other tenants, the same way smart landlords call previous landlords. There are good landlords and bad ones, you don't want to sign any papers with a bad one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
The fact of the matter is, good tenants do not do damage intentionally

You have no way of knowing whether you are getting a "good tenant" or not. Good tenants also become bad tenants when the landlord does stupid things to piss them off, like you so frequently do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Separate utilities can be very difficult and expensive to put in.  Each meter costs enough, but there is also the splitting of the plumbing, electrical, heating systems and air condition.  If you have a single boiler, heat is near impossible to split.  The payback is non-existent.

It takes money to be a landlord, period. If you do not have seperate metering, you are an amateur, period. You look like an idiot to your tenants, and you WILL have billing issues. In the end you will lose money. A water, power, or gas submeter cost less than $100 each and can be installed by a DIYer with half a brain.

An electric submeter can be installed by a non electrician in an afternoon WITHOUT an electrical permit. No wiring is required, they snap around the main electrical wire and cost about $100. Water submeters are also very easy to install, and cost about $50. Gas submetering cost a little bit more, since that is not usually a DIY job, but the meter itself is less than $100. Install would only be a few hundred by a professional.

Or you could act like a professional landlord, and call the utility and proper contractor to install separate service for every unit. It's just part of the cost of doing business. Takes money to make money.

A smart tenant that had shared utilities in the past will avoid any property without individual meters. Nobody ever likes that situation unless they are the ones getting free utilities. Somebody will always be unhappy with he split up of the bill you can't prove. Most people do not know how to estimate their household utility usage without the help of a monthly utility bill to tell them what they used. Even if they did really use all those utilities, they might get mad at you and say they didn't. What happens if little johhny starts taking hour long showers without mom knowing? Are you going to pass that cost along to all the other tenants? How do you think they will feel about that?

Also if your tenant knows they are not directly responsible for the amount of utilities they use, then they will not care about wasting them. Leave the faucet running, you're only paying half so who cares right? Leave the heat turned up and open the windows, it won't cost you any more at the end of the month. Not a good situation if you are the other tenant such as a duplex owner/renter situation as the OP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
  
Separate meters also create a challenge for common area utilities.  Who pays for outside lighting and water?

Usually common areas are also metered separately then split up between the tenants. As you like to say this is standard leasing practice. Sometimes they are included with rent as an amenity. Separate billing for these areas gives everyone an incentive to keep them nice and clean and not waste utilities.

Common area costs are frequently estimated for the year, divided by 12, and then paid monthly on top of rent. This is known as a "CAM" or "common area maintenance". You'd know that if you knew anything about being a landlord.
NoNonsenseLandlord

Registered:
Posts: 178
Reply with quote  #8 
One again, your lack of business acumen is readily apparent.  The OP was talking about a duplex.  You should stick to your tenant forums, where your dribble will make more sense among your co-tenants.  On this board, your inconsistent advice and vile attitude makes it obvious that you lack a proper upbringing.

A landlord must continually make a cost /benefit analysis for each improvement.  If you are already including it in the rent, separating meters does not increase income, or decrease expenses.  It only makes for more work and higher expenses.

A DYI could not legally install a separate electric or water meter, without a permit.  Even then, many cities require a licensed electrician, or a licensed plumber.  It still does not get to the splitting of the circuits and plumbing pipes that actually deliver those utilities to the rental unit.  In a duplex, which the OP was asking about, there was likely only one furnace.  That makes the task exponential.

Even with a sub-meter, the meter would have to be read, and likely someone would have to come into the unit to read it.  It makes more work than just charging a flat amount for utilities across all tenants.  Then it has to be allocated and collected.  Any amounts not paid, would have to be evicted over.

Common area utilities are almost NEVER split between tenants, if the tenant has their own meter.  Did you ever live in an apartment that had separate utilities and they still split the common ones monthly?   If they split it annually, and paid monthly, this can be done with all utilities with a lot less work.  That is what the OP was asking.

If you start charging more for utilities to larger families, it could also be a fair housing issue.

Number21, Stay focused on your tenant issues on tenant boards.  Let the real landlords work this one.

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http://www.NoNonsenseLandlord.com/

Landlording for maximum profitability and Financial Independence

Number21

Registered:
Posts: 75
Reply with quote  #9 
As usual, you make a complete moron of yourself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
The OP was talking about a duplex.

Yep, so am I. That is especially when you want another meter if you are the person living next door. It is YOUR utilities that are going to be wasted. If your tenant knows they don't have a meter they will waste services, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
You should stick to your tenant forums, where your dribble will make more sense among your co-tenants.

I'm not a tenant. You would understand everything I say if you had any clue about being a landlord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
your inconsistent advice and vile attitude

It's not my fault you insist on be constantly wrong and giving stupid advice. I won't let that slide. And I won't be nice about it. I think you're a bad person. Inside and out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
A landlord must continually make a cost /benefit analysis for each improvement.

Absolutely! Submetering is not an improvement, it's a requirement if you want to be a professional landlord. Part of the cost of doing business, like taxes. If you want to be a hack that rents out the duplex next door without meters, be my guest, but you are not professional, and all the professionals out there, be they tenants or landlords, are laughing at you. You will have tenant issues, and you will make less money. Once again you are doing the exact opposite of "landlording for maximum profitability"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
If you are already including it in the rent, separating meters does not increase income, or decrease expenses.  It only makes for more work and higher expenses.

It depends on who is paying all the bills. Somebody is going to get the shaft if there is no meter, that is a fact. There is no way to determine how much utilities were used. These are variables, they change every month, and every season. You CANNOT average them! 

If you are already including unmetered utilities with the rent, then yes, you very much are losing money, because your tenant is wasting utilities. They don't turn the heat down when they get warm, they just open up the window and heat the outside. The only way they have an incentive to save power is if they have their own meter. And again, when your tenants are unhappy with you, all they have to do is run the utility bills up and there is nothing you can do about it.

Additionally, smart tenants will avoid your property all together if there are no meters. This means the number of tenants to choose from and your overall income is lower. Like I'm certain yours is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
A DYI could not legally install a separate electric or water meter, without a permit.  Even then, many cities require a licensed electrician, or a licensed plumber.  It still does not get to the splitting of the circuits and plumbing pipes that actually deliver those utilities to the rental unit.  In a duplex, which the OP was asking about, there was likely only one furnace.  That makes the task exponential.

Totally wrong. You obviously know nothing about building/construction. Most duplexes are built this way from the beginning. It is not hard to separate pipes and wires. If you only have one furnace that is simply stupid. How do different tenants set different temperatures? Your rentals must be ungodly sh!t holes. A permit generally cost from $10 to $100 and is not required in every area. If it is required you can buy one, it's cheap. If you own the place you can do the work yourself, you do not have to hire somebody. Again, electric submeters are available that snap around the wires and do not require an electrician or a permit, and this is perfectly legal and safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Even with a sub-meter, the meter would have to be read, and likely someone would have to come into the unit to read it.

You are so incredibly stupid. Why would the meter be installed inside their unit? Obviously it would be installed outside where it can be read like every other meter is. If you don't want to deal with meter reading there are companies that can do all the reading/billing for you. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Then it has to be allocated and collected.  Any amounts not paid, would have to be evicted over.

How is that different than your "average" scheme? If you give them a proper meter with the utility company like a professional landlord does, then this ends up between the tenant and the utility company. Does not involve the landlord at all. Landlord does not have to worry about reading meters, collecting payments, or non payments. It saves you a lot of work over even trying to average the expenses. And you never get a call from a pissed off tenant after the neighbors left the heater running on high while they were out of town for six days. Who pays the bill when that happens? (Hint: You do)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Common area utilities are almost NEVER split between tenants, if the tenant has their own meter.

That's not true at all. Common areas in rentals (when I say rental I include houses, apartments, and COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS) are usually metered and billed separately. This is called CAMs in real estate lingo. Try googling it. It is up to the management whether they want to eat those expenses or pass them along to tenants. Sometimes, if the tenant has their own outdoor power, or water, they pay for the one they use, while the neighbors pay for the ones they use.

This is not likely an issue with a duplex, if there is a light outside, you pay for the one on your side. If there is water outside, you pay for the tap on your side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
If you start charging more for utilities to larger families, it could also be a fair housing issue.

Yes, this is another reason why you should have meters, and another reason why you can't just make up an average that works all the time. Which side are you on?

Get it through your head: There is NO way to come up with "average" utilities for a rental unit! It will be different for every season, and every tenant. Sometimes winter is colder and some years it is warmer. How do you average that out? Sometimes summer is hotter and requires more air conditioning than other years. 

Also, every tenant has different habits. No way you could possibly have anything close to an "average" until a specific tenant has lived in a specific unit for several years. Every family uses utilities differently. Some people are more wasteful than others. And how do you relate your average to the number of people in the household? What if unit A has a 2 person family and unit B has a 4 person family? Are you still going to just split the utilities up? The 2 person family will move out if you do that...

This is why they invented submeters. They are EXTREMELY common and VERY cheap. Just go to ebay and type in "submeter" and see what you find. They meter anything you could imagine. Power, natural gas, propane, oil, water, hot water, chilled water, they even sell BTU meters so you could in fact separately meter one furnace or boiler.
NoNonsenseLandlord

Registered:
Posts: 178
Reply with quote  #10 
You are always good for a laugh as a tenant trying to be a landlord.  

Dual zone thermostats/controls handle two different sides of a duplex.  No different than two thermostats in a single home.  Each unit has a thermostat.  Once again, because you do not have any rentals, you are out to spend the landlords money anyway you can.  Most duplexes built prior to 1970 would only have one furnace.  Some started as Mother-in-law apartments, or two story homes that were split.

All you have to do is come up with a number that is reasonable for utilities and include it in the rent.  One price, one check.  Sometimes it is more than the utilities cost, sometimes less.  It doesn't matter, the cost is in the lease and signed off on.


It's not that difficult when you understand market rents and average utility costs in the area.

If you put in separate sub-meters, even if the installation was free, someone needs to read the meters. And the work is just beginning.  You talk about sub-meters being owned by the landlord (from eBay), and splitting up the utilities with the utility company meters.  Neither will work easily.

If they are inside the tenant’s living space, you need to give notice prior to reading them.  Possibly two notices, every month.  Then, if you do not read the meter on the same day as the utility company, you need to determine the amount to charge.  If you have readings longer than a month apart, the bill is higher.  If the tenants want a steady budget payment, it is not possible.  In a cold weather climate, the bill could be significant, perhaps $400 for a single monthly heat bill. Most tenants want steady bills.  And what about a tenant tampering with the sub-meters?

Do you really think a  utility company will handle the reading and billing of the extra sub-meters that you bought on eBay, regardless of where they are installed at?  A utility company will supply their own meters, at their price.  No other option will be allowed.  They will at least dictate the meter standards.  You will need permits and licensed contractors, and at a very minimum, a final inspection.  And if you accidentally install a meter where some part of the utility did not get split evenly or correctly, the tenant can sue you for making them pay what is not theirs.

If you use a third party company to do the readings, they need to be paid by someone.  That extra expense puts you at a disadvantage because your rental is priced higher than other rentals without third party profits.

In side by side duplex, it may (or not) be easier to put in a meter, in a up/down duplex, it is near impossible to determine the exact split of the water, gas and electric service lines in a building that was not built for separate utilities.  There may be many branches and splitting of the lines that are hidden and in multiple locations.  New lines and configuration may be necessary.  Unless you are going to split all the utilities, it doesn't make sense to split any.  Why go through the effort when you are able to estimate some but not others?

You cannot charge extra for extra children under 18, no matter how much utilities they use if you only have one meter.  Perhaps when you become a landlord you will understand fair housing laws.

Once again, I appreciate all your effort to sound knowledgeable on landlord issues, but you always seem to not be able to comprehend cost/benefit analysis that a landlord must do.

Keep trying.  Real Landlords will understand what I am saying.

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http://www.NoNonsenseLandlord.com/

Landlording for maximum profitability and Financial Independence

Number21

Registered:
Posts: 75
Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Dual zone thermostats/controls handle two different sides of a duplex.

You clearly do not understand how the equipment behind that works...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Most duplexes built prior to 1970 would only have one furnace.

These type of stupid blanket statements don't get you anywhere. That is not a fact you can prove. Additionally, anybody renting out a duplex built before 1970 that has never been updated, is the definition of slum lord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
All you have to do is come up with a number that is reasonable for utilities and include it in the rent.  One price, one check.  Sometimes it is more than the utilities cost, sometimes less.  It doesn't matter, the cost is in the lease and signed off on.

It matters when the tenants start wasting utilities and you are the one paying the bill! You have not come up with any answer for that. How do you stop them from wasting utilities, either on purpose or accidentally, without a meter? Whatever you estimated the tenant can burn more than that if they choose to. This only works out in the tenant's benefit, not yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord

It's not that difficult when you understand market rents and average utility costs in the area.

There is no such thing as "average utility cost"! [rolleyes] Every unit, ever tenant, ever family, and every season uses utilities differently. You can't average it, that's why utilities have meters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
If you put in separate sub-meters, even if the installation was free, someone needs to read the meters. And the work is just beginning.  You talk about sub-meters being owned by the landlord (from eBay), and splitting up the utilities with the utility company meters.  Neither will work easily.

Again, you're too stupid to understand the concept here. There are two very easy solutions to that. Hire a company that does meter reading, or, much better, simply set them up with their own service from the utility. Now the utility does the reading and billing, you never get a bill, and never have to ask the tenant for a reading or a check for utilities. If they don't pay it's up to the utility to deal with it. Even if it cost you a THOUSAND dollars to install this service, it is worth it. If it takes you more than a few months to recoup that you are in the wrong business. You should have considered this cost before buying a prospective rental property. Adding submeters or individual utility service will also add value to your property.

Even if you didn't want to individually bill tenants, a smart landlord would install submeters to check for leaks, abuse, and theft. Not possible to detect or prove any of this without a meter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
If they are inside the tenant’s living space, you need to give notice prior to reading them.  Possibly two notices, every month.  Then, if you do not read the meter on the same day as the utility company, you need to determine the amount to charge.  If you have readings longer than a month apart, the bill is higher.  If the tenants want a steady budget payment, it is not possible.  In a cold weather climate, the bill could be significant, perhaps $400 for a single monthly heat bill. Most tenants want steady bills.  And what about a tenant tampering with the sub-meters?

Again, you're too stupid to understand the concept here.
1. Meters go outside. Submeters, utility meters, and everything else.
2. Direct utility billing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Do you really think a  utility company will handle the reading and billing of the extra sub-meters that you bought on eBay, regardless of where they are installed at?

Still not getting through your thick skull. Let the utility deal with all this for you. Obviously you are too stupid to handle submeters yourself and save some money. That's fine, even a stupid person can call a contractor to have real utility meters installed. It's just part of the cost of doing business. You do not have a real rental unit without a dedicated meter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
If you use a third party company to do the readings, they need to be paid by someone.  That extra expense puts you at a disadvantage because your rental is priced higher than other rentals without third party profits.

Not really. Just add it to the utility bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
 in a up/down duplex, it is near impossible to determine the exact split of the water, gas and electric service lines in a building that was not built for separate utilities.

You are giving a real specific example that nobody here actually matches. You're just trying to argue for no reason because you have no better point to make...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Unless you are going to split all the utilities, it doesn't make sense to split any.  Why go through the effort when you are able to estimate some but not others?.

Why the hell would you do some and not others? Yes, of course you do ALL utilities. You're really earning your dumbass badge today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
You cannot charge extra for extra children under 18, no matter how much utilities they use if you only have one meter.

I totally agree. Do you have trouble remembering which side of an argument you are on? You are only making my point for me. If a family has kids, then the only way to know what utilities are being used is to meter them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteNonsenseLandlord
Keep trying.  Real Landlords will understand what I am saying.

Have you noticed yet that nobody ever agrees with you or defends the stupid things you say?




NoNonsenseLandlord

Registered:
Posts: 178
Reply with quote  #12 
Once again, when you ever become a landlord and understand that many buildings are older and separating utilities would be a major expense, your answers will make more sense.
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Landlording for maximum profitability and Financial Independence

BritneyR

Registered:
Posts: 224
Reply with quote  #13 
You can consider hiring professional to manage your property. It will help you to a great extent.
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